Remo
DrumTalk » Drum Talk

To the Owners of the Drum Dial
go to previous topicgo to next topic

post new topic reply to topic Print this post Print post Forward this post Forward post Click to watch this topic Watch This Topic flat mode Flat threaded mode Threaded
Poster Re:To the Owners of the Drum Dial [Re:PoorButGood]
StillKickinIt

Poopeye



Posts: 1986
Joined: Jan 17, 2005
Location: Orygun - The Beaver State - USA
No. 101 Posted on Jan 5, 2007 7:15 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
TA DA!!! So, in essence, I was right about the vertically travelling needle measuring the tension in the way described above.

At some point, it would seem that the dial could give the same reading across the head even if some lugs have less tension than others because if one side is torqued down hard...the other side directly across the head could have looser lugs but the head tension is so tight overall that it doesn't measure the difference any more.

Hmmm.....where's my old drumkey?...I'm fine.

Oh gawd, don't get me wrong....I'm not being critical if you use one....I just don't see the need for me....yet. Big Smile



Kick me...beat me....hit me with sticks....
RvJim

Reverend

Moderator

Posts: 4219
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Essex, United Kingdom
No. 102 Posted on Jan 5, 2007 7:28 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
thats actually not true because the side or lug that is down hard will measure a higher tension than the other, there is a natural decay in the tension as you move away from the source that is causing it.


"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously"
-Hubert H Humphrey
BrandonPorter

For you



Posts: 4153
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
No. 103 Posted on Jan 5, 2007 7:37 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I think I know what StillKickenIt means. Eventually there will come a point where the precision of the instrument fails.

I can measure something that is 1 cm long, and then go back with a caliper and find that it is really only 9.7 mm long, and so on.

I think he means that the drumdial will eventually lose ability to tell the difference between the tension of opposing lugs once you get them cranked tightly. Perhaps not, as I don't know how precisely the drum dial is calibrated.



"For as the world became flooded with information, the question of how much one knew assumed more importance than the question of what uses one made of what one did know." --Neil Postman
pwc





Posts: 9920
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
No. 104 Posted on Jan 5, 2007 8:47 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I've read a few of these replies but still come round to the view that even tension at lug points does NOT equate with even tone/pitch at lug points - which is the main aim of tuning.


Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
RvJim

Reverend

Moderator

Posts: 4219
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Essex, United Kingdom
No. 105 Posted on Jan 5, 2007 10:41 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Not wanting to carry on a dead arguement but infact it actually does provided that the material is uniform, even tension around the outside would mean that the tension change is even to the middle of the drum thus making a wave that is smooth and continous (like a sine wave) thus producing a note without phase, this fact is undeniable - remember that sound is merely energy propagating across a medium. The only arguement against using it can come from the following factors, the drum not being dead round, the head not being dead round, the matrix of the material forming the drum head not being uniform, the hoop not being dead round and lastly the dial itself being inaccurate. All apart from the dial itself are factors that would stop the drum being capable of getting in tune properly anyway.


"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously"
-Hubert H Humphrey
pwc





Posts: 9920
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
No. 106 Posted on Jan 6, 2007 12:26 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I understand the principles involved but practice has shown me that it doesn't take much for a hoop to be fractionally off square or a lug position to be off a millimeter etc to make tuning by equal pitch a better option than tuning by equal tension. But in an ideal world and on an ideal drum with everything made perfectly, I have no doubt you are right.


Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
ry4n525





Posts: 4
Joined: Sep 2, 2006
No. 107 Posted on Jan 31, 2008 7:55 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I don't know about all of you but the Drum Dial is a very useful tool to me. I know how to tune drums but when it comes to my 26 year old Rogers kit the Drum Dial is a must. The lugs are screwed up, dents in the bearing edges, gaps, and slightly warped shells make tuning by ear very frustrating. To be honest I don't want to spend 2 days tuning a piece of *** drum set that only serves the purpose of a practice kit. Until I am able to afford a new, particularly good kit, I will use the drum dial as it keeps my crappy 26 year old drums in tune. Thank you


ModernDrummer





Posts: 3233
Joined: Jan 15, 2005
Location: Chicagoland, U.S.A.
No. 108 Posted on Jan 31, 2008 8:12 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Or, you could just learn to tune by ear, and save $$$.

And all the factors Jim cited are exactly those factors that render the Drum Dial less than satisfactory. And those factors are likely incorporated in to MOST drums. All it would take is a shell, head, etc. that's even slightly out of round to make the tension at each lug inaccurate. Expansion / contraction of the shells would also do so.

If it works for ya and/or ya want one, by all means, throw out the dollars for it. But it's certainly NOT needed to tune drums well.

The absolute best tuner you'll ever have is right between your ears, and it's free.




07 May, 2001

Kaleidoscope





Posts: 635
Joined: May 3, 2006
Location: Rock city
No. 109 Posted on Jan 31, 2008 10:06 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
all you guys are saying the best tuner is between your ears, yes but not everyone has good ears, I used to use a drum dial and it is a great tool for people that don't have a lot of time OR a good ear. The very very small imperfections in shells and heads are not enough IMO to make such a tool worthless.


say cheese
"Hi ... my name is Kaleidoscope and I'm a Zildji-holic."
ModernDrummer





Posts: 3233
Joined: Jan 15, 2005
Location: Chicagoland, U.S.A.
No. 110 Posted on Jan 31, 2008 11:15 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Well, I decline to accept the concept that not everyone has "good ears". If one can hear to play the drums in the first place, one's ears are "good enough".

Learning how to tune by ear is like learning anything else in drumming. It simply takes constant work. Nothing more. It's one of those things, like learning a smooth double stroke roll that can only be accomplished through diligent effort.

There's no shortcuts, not even the Drum Dial. One can get it close with a Drum Dial, but if one truly wants to maximize the tuning, it still, ultimately, will need to be done by ear.

Our guitarist use a guitar tuner, but still tweaked the tuning by ear. And the sound was better for it.




07 May, 2001

Yojan





Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Plymouth, UK
No. 111 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 1:39 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
ModernDrummer wrote:
There's no shortcuts, not even the Drum Dial. One can get it close with a Drum Dial, but if one truly wants to maximize the tuning, it still, ultimately, will need to be done by ear.

Our guitarist use a guitar tuner, but still tweaked the tuning by ear. And the sound was better for it.


Thanks kinda what I think... get it close with a dial, then tweak by hand. The most frustrating part of tuning for me is not the fine tuning, it's getting all the lugs in roughly the same register, lol. Wink



www.myspace.com/deathdeniedofficial

Kaleidoscope





Posts: 635
Joined: May 3, 2006
Location: Rock city
No. 112 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 6:23 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
ModernDrummer wrote:
Well, I decline to accept the concept that not everyone has "good ears". If one can hear to play the drums in the first place, one's ears are "good enough".

bleh,I forget the name of the composer but he was deaf, its the same concept. Being able to drum is nothing more than having a good ability to control your appendages independently and syncopated. Although having a good ear at the same time is advantageous. As I said, I no longer use a drum dial, but its the best tool out there among tuning tools, buying anything else other than a Tama tension watch(same concept) would be a waste IMO.



say cheese
"Hi ... my name is Kaleidoscope and I'm a Zildji-holic."
pbloxam

Sound-Master



Posts: 1943
Joined: Jan 7, 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
No. 113 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 6:24 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Wow, a post that started 2, almost three years ago...

Its the do you slay the deer with a bow and arrow or a gun???

Both will do the job..one may more efficiently than others...

For all of us old geezers here, dials and torque wrenches,

resotuners didn't exist back when we dinosaurs roamed...so we

learned to tune by ear....I was skeptical when thet first came

out as many are/were...

Then my first job as a roadie for a lets say, a large venue, and I saw the use for it...

Mick Fleetwood breaks a snare head, the drum tech rushes out a new snare, takes the breaken headed drum, replaces the head and used a "Neary Drum torque to quickly tune up the drum..

Took a few seconds and his main snare was up and running again..

I asked Shannon where he got the thing and went out the next day and got one...

Taping was futile as 100000 watts of pa is hard to hear over...and 70000 watts of monitors don't help either!!

You learn something all the time!!



Some sit wondering...Others are doing while you waste time wondering....

www.myspace.com/drummerfromhellion
LilDrmr





Posts: 727
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
No. 114 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 7:56 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
don't bother wasting money on a drum dial, trust me. I once had trouble tuning drums but with experience I got the hang of it. Now I don't need anything except 2 drum heads and a tuning key to tune my drums Smile

I used to muffle my drums hardcore to but I don't do any muffling except my PDP pillow that came with my PDP kit for my kick drum. I do put a piece of duct tape if I tuned my kit to a jazz/bebop kit to cut down in ring though but that's about it



I love my PDP kit, the Royal Onyx, the pillow, the maple shells, I love my PDP kit
OldFart

Mapex



Posts: 6681
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
Location: Peoria, AZ
No. 115 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 8:53 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Yojan wrote:
Thanks kinda what I think... get it close with a dial, then tweak by hand. The most frustrating part of tuning for me is not the fine tuning, it's getting all the lugs in roughly the same register, lol. Wink


I join you in that frustration.

I do not yet own a Drum Dial, but I'm not against using one; and I've tuned a fair number of drums by ear in my day.

New heads can be troublesome, though, and the Drum Dial or Tension Watch can't help quite as much with that. You end up playing, then tweaking, then playing, then tweaking, and so forth. But the process to that point brings everything "this close" to the goal. I believe as JB does, you end the excercise with a combination of feel and sound ... not tension (as such); therefore, how much torque is needed and how much tension is registered is of less concern at that moment.

Randy



Mapex Saturn * Paiste
Terry Bozzio Single-Ply Coated
tomcat

manic



Posts: 3146
Joined: Feb 28, 2007
No. 116 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 9:40 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
i have a drumdial and its definitely not 100% accurate but it does get you pretty close and from there you can tweak it out.
I'm all for tuning by ear and I agree every drummer should know how to do it but some just can't. i believe I'm tone deaf and alot of us cannot or have an extremely hard time discerning different pitches.
so if the drumdial can make life easier then that is only a plus. its another item to add to our arsenal of tools from which to draw upon, like a metronome.



Better Living Through Paiste

marv





Posts: 124
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: atlanta, ga
No. 117 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 10:37 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Why do people drive cars with automatic transmissions? I learned how to drive with a stick and I think everybody should.

Why do people tune their guitars with tuners? I learned how to tune with a tuning fork and I think everybody should.

Why do people use computers? I used a typewriter and I think everybody should.

Why do people use guns to kill animals? I used a club and I think everybody should.



Marv Peck
www.drivingallnight.com
moneyowen





Posts: 2370
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
No. 118 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 11:27 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite



HammerDown





Posts: 360
Joined: Jan 17, 2005
No. 119 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 3:25 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Obviously one can read in this Thread my opinion on the original-Drum Dial has changed. I experimented with it for hours and on several different drums, the thing produces a darn good sounding drum.
Drummers that want it, should get it.



OldFart

Mapex



Posts: 6681
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
Location: Peoria, AZ
No. 120 Posted on Feb 1, 2008 3:38 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
moneyowen wrote:



... but not everyone is going to agree the exact moment or condition when death actually occurs. There always seems to be a little grey area to wonder about Clown

OF



Mapex Saturn * Paiste
Terry Bozzio Single-Ply Coated
lilblakdak





Posts: 2210
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
No. 121 Posted on Feb 2, 2008 5:09 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
pbloxam wrote:
Wow, a post that started 2, almost three years ago...

Its the do you slay the deer with a bow and arrow or a gun???

Both will do the job..one may more efficiently than others...

For all of us old geezers here, dials and torque wrenches,

resotuners didn't exist back when we dinosaurs roamed...so we

learned to tune by ear....I was skeptical when thet first came

out as many are/were...

Then my first job as a roadie for a lets say, a large venue, and I saw the use for it...

Mick Fleetwood breaks a snare head, the drum tech rushes out a new snare, takes the breaken headed drum, replaces the head and used a "Neary Drum torque to quickly tune up the drum..

Took a few seconds and his main snare was up and running again..

I asked Shannon where he got the thing and went out the next day and got one...

Taping was futile as 100000 watts of pa is hard to hear over...and 70000 watts of monitors don't help either!!

You learn something all the time!!

Ive talked to Tommy Lees tech and he tells almost the exact same story. Try tuning a drum while Motley Crue is ripping through a set!
Drum Dials are a great tool.



Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever.
moneyowen





Posts: 2370
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
No. 122 Posted on Feb 2, 2008 5:26 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
If I was Mick Fleetwood, or Tommy Lee, or even me! I'd have another snare drum (or 2 or 20) off in the wings set up and ready to go. This saves a lot of anguish of trying to put on a new head on the fly.


lilblakdak





Posts: 2210
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
No. 123 Posted on Feb 2, 2008 6:07 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
moneyowen wrote:
If I was Mick Fleetwood, or Tommy Lee, or even me! I'd have another snare drum (or 2 or 20) off in the wings set up and ready to go. This saves a lot of anguish of trying to put on a new head on the fly.


They do. But like most drummers they have a main snare that they like to use. So they want that one up and running as fast as possible.



Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever.
Crusher



Moderator

Posts: 4940
Joined: Jan 15, 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
No. 124 Posted on Feb 2, 2008 2:05 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
moneyowen wrote:
If I was Mick Fleetwood, or Tommy Lee, or even me! I'd have another snare drum (or 2 or 20) off in the wings set up and ready to go. This saves a lot of anguish of trying to put on a new head on the fly.


But you have at least 20. Clown
Actually how many do you have?




Musicians Wisdom

Communicate! It can't make things any worse.
BrandonPorter

For you



Posts: 4153
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
No. 125 Posted on Feb 4, 2008 6:53 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I might as well hit that horse one more time...

I agree with all of you who have said that the drum dial is a tool to use like anything else. I have used one with really good success, especially on my snare drums. If the tuning is a bit low, then the dial is less accurate. So on snare drums especially I think it gets you pretty darn close. On larger toms and the bass drum, it can get you in the ballpark but you've gotta find your own seat.



"For as the world became flooded with information, the question of how much one knew assumed more importance than the question of what uses one made of what one did know." --Neil Postman
Go to page Previous 12345678 Next

post new topic reply to topic Print this post Print post Forward this post Forward post Click to watch this topic Watch This Topic flat mode Flat threaded mode Threaded
  go to previous topicgo to next topic
Normal post
New post
Deleted Post
Privacy & Legal | Support | Catalogs  © 2014 Remo Inc.
   
 
Page was generated in 126 milliseconds