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Singlestroker





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No. 1 Posted on Apr 25, 2014 1:31 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
First, a question, and probably a naive one. I've always wondered what a "swing face" is. Can anybody please put me right?

Second, I found this video of Kenny Aaronoff playing BSF with the BR Big Band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUIcQCP5c6c

They were playing it slower than when Buddy was still around, but I thought that, for a rock drummer playing with a big band, this was a good performance from Kenny Aaronoff. I would like to know how others feel.



paul

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No. 2 Posted on Apr 25, 2014 9:31 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Why post pale imitations when the real thing is available?

Big Swing Face

Sorry, but Aaronoff just doesn't have the big band chops.

There are a couple of drummers on the Burnin' for Buddy discs that can pull it off, Dave Weckl being one, but it's hard for someone who only plays back beat rock to master the subtleties of big band drumming without a lot of work. Listen to how Buddy changes his playing to comport with the rest of the band. He's the master.



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No. 3 Posted on Apr 25, 2014 10:09 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Thanks Paul. Of course Buddy is incomparable.

Presumably you too don't know what the title means. wonder if it's something like "two-faced". I can't find any reference to it on the net.


Singlestroker edited on Apr 25, 2014 11:59 PM

paul

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No. 4 Posted on Apr 25, 2014 1:17 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I think it's just a song title. Nothing more.


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No. 5 Posted on Apr 25, 2014 11:59 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Oops. I just read my last post and, unbelievably, saw that I wrote that Buddy was "comparable". Hopefully, everyone realises that I meant "incomparable". I have now edited the post

I hope that Alzheimer's is not setting in just yet!



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No. 6 Posted on Apr 26, 2014 12:31 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I have to agree with Paul on this video. It's not is fault but he is stiff and way heavy on some solos in this genre. There is a reason why it's called "swing" and he just doesn't swing in my opinion. I tried not to compare to Buddy Rich but just listened to a big band and what the "feel" was.


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No. 7 Posted on Apr 26, 2014 11:15 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Of course, I defer to you both with far more experience than I. However, I was comparing him with other rock guys I have heard with the BR band, and although I see what you're saying about weight, Peter, he still comes over to me as having got closer than most to the feel.


OldFart

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No. 8 Posted on Apr 29, 2014 9:22 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I'll be non-committal and say I think that was as good as I've heard from Kenny A, so I applaud him.

Not to redirect the thread; I hope it not too far out of line to post this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE0W912_faM

This three-part video is circa 1989.

Vinnie C plays the same song. I acknowledge my bias for Vinnie.

The tie-in being a non-Big Band player sitting-in with a Big Band coupled with Big Swing Face being the featured tune.

{ Sidebar : I'd think in a showcase to commemorate Buddy Rich one would strive to tune your drum heads at least somewhat similar to Buddy's sound. Vinnie's kit has noticeably relaxed heads compared to how I recall BR tuned his kit. Am I off-base? Apologies if that's picky}


OldFart edited on Apr 29, 2014 9:29 PM

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paul

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No. 9 Posted on Apr 30, 2014 6:54 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I agree that Vinnie did a better job. I'd also like to have heard different tuning, but that was the fashion when it was recorded. Having the drums so dead limits dynamic range severely, a bad thing in a big band.

My bigger problem is with the tempo, which Vinnie sets. Just way too slow. It saps the energy from the tune.

When the Burnin' for Buddy disc first came out I was pretty excited, but generally find the performances lacking, especially from the 'rock' drummers, who seem to all think that if you play a swing pattern on the ride and hit the trumpet kicks on your snare everything will be right.

There are some guys out there, and on the discs, who do a good job in a big band setting, Dave Weckl being a great example, but for the most part it was disappointing.



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No. 10 Posted on May 1, 2014 8:21 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
paul wrote:
... Having the drums so dead limits dynamic range severely, a bad thing in a big band...


I agree completely with that, but I can't really think of where I like that dead sound, in a big band or elsewhere.



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No. 11 Posted on May 1, 2014 10:48 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I find it so difficult to articulate what I think is good and bad about drums for a musical genre, even if I know, and that seems particularly so with Big Band.

I’d be interested to read how forum colleagues with real experience Big Band drumming, such as, of course, Paul, describe what it is and what is right and wrong in it. Could it be that the only way really to nail Big Band drumming is to sound just like Buddy, and that that is the only way it can be described? There are certainly several pieces that are so identified with BR that I can’t hear them without comparing the effort with his.



paul

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No. 12 Posted on May 1, 2014 11:12 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
There are a lot of ways to approach it, and while Buddy's is the one I try to emulate, it's far from the only way.

Dave Weckl's work with various GRP configurations is very good also, as is Bernie Dresel with Gordon Goodwin.

To me, big band music calls for larger drums that will allow for a relatively low tuning while retaining resonance and tone, especially from the bass drum. I also like the snare drum to be fairly crisp and articulate.

Basically, I think every note should be clear and distinct.


paul edited on May 1, 2014 11:19 AM

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No. 13 Posted on May 1, 2014 3:08 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I haven't listened to Ian Paice with the BR Big Band, but I liked listening to his account of the experience and how he approached it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ufyx1fHdAk

Whether or not he did a good job with the BR band, there's a lot to take from what he says about it.



OldFart

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No. 14 Posted on May 2, 2014 8:33 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
paul wrote:
There are a lot of ways to approach it, and while Buddy's is the one I try to emulate, it's far from the only way.

Dave Weckl's work with various GRP configurations is very good also, as is Bernie Dresel with Gordon Goodwin.

To me, big band music calls for larger drums that will allow for a relatively low tuning while retaining resonance and tone, especially from the bass drum. I also like the snare drum to be fairly crisp and articulate.

Basically, I think every note should be clear and distinct.


You make excellent points, Paul. And I acknowledge what you've been saying about Weckl's playing in this genre'. He definitely has the chops to play anything; but also has the sound and feel necessary for Big Band. He serves the song very, very well. He's never too far under, nor yet too bold.

I could only play half the video before I was called away, but that was a great link ... thanks for posting.



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OldFart

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No. 15 Posted on May 2, 2014 10:46 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:
I haven't listened to Ian Paice with the BR Big Band, but I liked listening to his account of the experience and how he approached it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ufyx1fHdAk

Whether or not he did a good job with the BR band, there's a lot to take from what he says about it.


I like Ian. I couldn't easily find a quality video of Ian Paice playing Swing, or performing with the BR band. But I watched this video and liked hearing his thoughts.



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No. 16 Posted on May 3, 2014 6:12 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
OldFart wrote:
You make excellent points, Paul...


Apologies, Paul, I should have said that myself, particularly since you were taking the trouble to answer my own question. What you said about drum-sizes in particular taught me a lot. Your point about clarity could, of course, be applied to any genre, but it is so, so, important, and is something that I am striving to perfect.

OldFart wrote:Weckl... has the chops to play anything; but also has the sound and feel necessary for Big Band. He serves the song very, very well...


There's no doubt about that and, as you say, Paul, it isn't Buddy but it is still outstanding.



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No. 17 Posted on May 3, 2014 6:14 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
OldFart wrote:
I like Ian. I couldn't easily find a quality video of Ian Paice playing Swing, or performing with the BR band. But I watched this video and liked hearing his thoughts.


After writing my post I found a recording of Ian with the BR Big Band at The London Palladium, but it's so poor that I can't hear clearly what he played. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWO27d46DSk



OldFart

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No. 18 Posted on May 3, 2014 12:03 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:
After writing my post I found a recording of Ian with the BR Big Band at The London Palladium, but it's so poor that I can't hear clearly what he played. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWO27d46DSk


Yes, I agree it's wanting. And as a point of fact, this is the solitary evidence I was able to find of Paice working in that genré. Having heard it before awhile back, and knowing the quality wasn't up to snuff, I'd forgotten quite how lacking it is for our purposes in this thread.

Good on ya for seeking and finding anything from Ian Paice Smile


OldFart edited on May 3, 2014 12:17 PM

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