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Poster Playing disco-beat "shoop" sounds
Singlestroker





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No. 1 Posted on Mar 11, 2014 7:48 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
We established over on another thread that shoop is a good term for the effect when striking an open hi-hat then closing it Ė to make a ďshoopĒ sound.

What interests me is that a lot of tutorial material on this shows the drummer striking the top hi-hat cymbal not only when it is up, but also at the point when the hats close. I myself play only the first of those strokes, with the hats open, and I allow the shoop-sound to be completed by the closing of the cymbals together.

For example, in 4-4 time, if the shoop starts on the and-stroke of 4 and ends on the 1 stroke in the next bar, I do not play a stick-stroke on the 1. I play like this wherever in the bar the shoop occurs.

I just wondered how others do this.



technique2012





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No. 2 Posted on Mar 11, 2014 1:21 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I've done it both ways. But I personally prefer a more clean-cut note wherever the shoop happens to resolve, so I tend to play on as well as off the shoop.


"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple."
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RvJim

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No. 3 Posted on Mar 12, 2014 3:25 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
In my playing I do a lot of subtle hi-hat work associated with when I hit the hats (on the way open or closed) and the velocity of the hats make a difference too.


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Singlestroker





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No. 4 Posted on Mar 12, 2014 3:49 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Thank you for the replies guys.

technique2012 wrote:
... I personally prefer a more clean-cut note wherever the shoop happens to resolve, so I tend to play on as well as off the shoop.


It's interesting to note your observation Ethan. Perhaps you are more accurate than I am in timing the hi-hat point of closure with the stick-stroke (which is more than possible!), but I find that playing the second stroke makes the job less clean and tidy, rather than more.

RvJim wrote:
In my playing I do a lot of subtle hi-hat work associated with when I hit the hats (on the way open or closed) and the velocity of the hats make a difference too.


I'd be very interested to hear you playing some of that, Jim. I myself am developing some of the skills that you mention, but given the amount of time I can put in, and my own learning rate, I have to be patient. In the meantime, I consider it a major personal achievement to be able to play this effect anywhere in a bar, and playing and co-ordinating it with almost any combination of the other three limbs, with minimal practice.


Singlestroker edited on Mar 12, 2014 3:54 PM

technique2012





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No. 5 Posted on Mar 13, 2014 2:40 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:

...I find that playing the second stroke makes the job less clean and tidy, rather than more.


It's all about the timing. And I still have the stroke and resolve of the shoop timed unevenly on several occasions. Maybe it's just that I have a compulsive need for there to be all the 8th notes...



"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple."
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Singlestroker





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No. 6 Posted on Mar 13, 2014 2:59 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
technique2012 wrote:
...And I still have the stroke and resolve of the shoop timed unevenly on several occasions.


Yes, that's the risk with playing both stick-strokes, and one that I don't consider necessary.

technique2012 wrote:Maybe it's just that I have a compulsive need for there to be all the 8th notes...


Possibly so. The reason why I don't strive to get the second stroke in is because the closing of the hats produces an 8th-note without using the stick. Both the stroke on opening the hats and on closing are always going to sound different from the others surrounding them, so I don't see what's gained by insisting on a stick-stroke on the point of closing the hats.

By the way, I don't regard the version without the closing stick-stroke to be an easy option as such. The ability to interrupt the flow of 8th-notes at the required points has itself to be learned, and it takes some doing.

I should make it clear that not for one second am I suggesting that you are wrong here. After all, people of the calibre of Jared Falk are teaching it your way, so who am I..? What I am doing is giving my own perspective, and also suggesting that the point is well worth discussing. I'm surprised that teachers don't mention it.


Singlestroker edited on Mar 16, 2014 12:42 PM

technique2012





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No. 7 Posted on Mar 16, 2014 7:38 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:

I should make it clear that not for one second am I suggesting that you are wrong here. After all, people of the calibre of Jared Falk are teaching it your way, so who am I..? What I am doing is giving my own perspective, and also suggesting that the point is well worth discussing. I'm surprised that teachers don't mention it.

I don't think there's really a wrong answer to this. You've brought up a very good point. I think that everyone has their own style. One person could say they play in the way you describe and another in the way I describe. I think it's just an individuality type of thing. Heck, Jojo Mayer just does it with his foot and nothing else!



"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple."
-Charles Mingus
Singlestroker





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No. 8 Posted on Mar 16, 2014 1:36 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
technique2012 wrote:... Jojo Mayer just does it with his foot and nothing else!


... and a lot more that I'll never come close to achieving. I had the pleasure of attending a drum clinic of his five or six years ago. Actually, why we were asked to bring practice pads, stands and sticks, I can't imagine. The "drum clinic" title was a complete misdescription, and what he really put on was a talk and a demonstration. Nonetheless, it was a chance in a lifetime. Not many can say they've studied his every move from not more than ten feet away while he played a half-hour solo.



StillKicken





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No. 9 Posted on Mar 16, 2014 5:15 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
I do it a lot when playing Country shuffle. Itís counted e1, e2, e3, e4 and on and on with the hi-hat closed then after about four bars or so Iíll raise my foot and back down during the play making the shoop sound. Sometimes Iíll use it when there is a slight pause in the music or after a phrase in the singing.

Itís basically a feel for the music for me and just happens naturally at times without thinking about it. At the last gig I paid more attention as to how I was playing it. It seems most of the time Iím just using my foot then the stick continues after a slight pause. Also at the end of a song the guitars will do a Country run/ending when there is a pause I use it to fill the pause with my foot then stick down on the last note, I think; Iíll check tomorrow night. LOL!!

sherm



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RvJim

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No. 10 Posted on Mar 19, 2014 10:27 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:
I'd be very interested to hear you playing some of that, Jim. I myself am developing some of the skills that you mention, but given the amount of time I can put in, and my own learning rate, I have to be patient. In the meantime, I consider it a major personal achievement to be able to play this effect anywhere in a bar, and playing and co-ordinating it with almost any combination of the other three limbs, with minimal practice.


I don't really have many examples, to be honest, of some of the trickier things I can do.

There is some older music on my website with some nice hi-hat work, but nothing overly crazy or sophisticated.

www.timothybodisco.com/music.html

Check out Saturnalia (recorded live 03/07 -- this bands first gig), Ode to Hisato (01/09), All the same (circa 04) as the best examples.

I'll try to work something into a new tune at some stage, but now a days with a family and a career I don't play as much as I'd like and my band and I write music very slowly! We've not done a proper recording in 5 years!



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Singlestroker





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No. 11 Posted on Mar 20, 2014 1:44 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
RvJim wrote:... Check out Saturnalia (recorded live 03/07 -- this bands first gig), Ode to Hisato (01/09), All the same (circa 04)...


It's great stuff. That singer is so good, I kept forgetting to listen to the drums!

I thought that the hi-hat work was very good, tasteful and really effective. Not only that, but it was not busy for busy's sake. I know it's discussed over and over again, and that someone with your experience knows it anyway, but the temptation for a drummer to use every song prove what s/he can do has to be resisted.

I'm pleased to say that I am getting pretty close to that sort of level and quality with my own playing, including hi-hat. No doubt, the opportunities for me to use it are going to be few, given that I am in my mid-sixties and in ill health, and I play only in brass bands. However, there is nothing like having the skills there when the occasions arise.



RvJim

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No. 12 Posted on Mar 20, 2014 3:55 AM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:
It's great stuff. That singer is so good, I kept forgetting to listen to the drums!

I thought that the hi-hat work was very good, tasteful and really effective. Not only that, but it was not busy for busy's sake. I know it's discussed over and over again, and that someone with your experience knows it anyway, but the temptation for a drummer to use every song prove what s/he can do has to be resisted.

I'm pleased to say that I am getting pretty close to that sort of level and quality with my own playing, including hi-hat. No doubt, the opportunities for me to use it are going to be few, given that I am in my mid-sixties and in ill health, and I play only in brass bands. However, there is nothing like having the skills there when the occasions arise.


Thanks for the complements. It was a different singer in each song I suggested... what did you listen to?



"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously"
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Singlestroker





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No. 13 Posted on Mar 20, 2014 8:21 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
RvJim wrote:
... It was a different singer in each song I suggested... what did you listen to?


Whoops, so they are! Blush I'm pleased to say that I find both striking now I listen again and have had the difference pointed out, although it was Saturnalia that I had in mind when I made the original comment.

By the way, I haven't had a chance to listen enough get my head around the time-signature changes in Saturnalia, but I get the impression that most of it is 12-8, but 6-8 bars break it up at various intervals. Is that about right?



RvJim

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No. 14 Posted on Mar 20, 2014 11:47 PM Profile | PM | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Singlestroker wrote:
Whoops, so they are! Blush I'm pleased to say that I find both striking now I listen again and have had the difference pointed out, although it was Saturnalia that I had in mind when I made the original comment.

By the way, I haven't had a chance to listen enough get my head around the time-signature changes in Saturnalia, but I get the impression that most of it is 12-8, but 6-8 bars break it up at various intervals. Is that about right?


There are a few signatures in it from memory, but mostly 6/8 and 4/4, but a couple of little turn-arounds with odd numbers of beats. The Mesmere act had lots of tricky off time stuff going on.



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-Hubert H Humphrey
StillKickinIt

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No. 15 Posted on Apr 20, 2014 6:17 PM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
Not really related but I've discovered an interesting effect when playing 16th notes (r-l-r-l etc) and shooping on the hats, with a right stick to the snare on 2 and 4, I move my left stick to the bell of the hi-hat cymbal and throw a little "ding-a-ling" into my "shoop shoop" Big Smile

StillKickinIt edited on Apr 20, 2014 6:20 PM

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Singlestroker





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No. 16 Posted on Apr 21, 2014 10:23 AM Profile | PM | Email | Quote | Search | Copy | Favorite
StillKickinIt wrote:
Not really related but I've discovered an interesting effect when playing 16th notes (r-l-r-l etc) and shooping on the hats, with a right stick to the snare on 2 and 4, I move my left stick to the bell of the hi-hat cymbal and throw a little "ding-a-ling" into my "shoop shoop" Big Smile


The scope for coming up with imaginative touches all of our own, like that,is one of the things I love about drums.




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